Official "Discuss the latest page" thread

All discussion related to the Crimson Dark webcomic (at crimsondark.com)
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Silvereye
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Re: Official "Discuss the latest page" thread

Post by Silvereye » Tue Jan 31, 2017 8:25 am

This is profoundly disappointing.

Look, if I was interested in whining about American politics I could visit just about anywhere on the internet right now. Instead I came here, because I like a bit of sci-fi and Crimson Dark is usually pretty good about that. Instead I find yet another bit of anti-Trump propaganda. :roll: This isn't going to make me oppose Trump -- I don't much care about the guy one way or the other. I'm part of the audience, not your political ally.

Instead of some good sci-fi, I find a bit of ancient American history being used to make a point about more ancient American history. This is not interesting. This is not why I'm here. This makes me question how good the comic is, considering the author reckons it's less important than the political issue of the week.

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fightinfilipino
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Re: Official "Discuss the latest page" thread

Post by fightinfilipino » Tue Jan 31, 2017 2:08 pm

i'm happy to see this post from David. keep it up!

and for folks who are fans of Crimson Dark and are either pro-Trump or apathetic to it all...have you missed the narrative of Crimson Dark entirely?
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David
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Re: Official "Discuss the latest page" thread

Post by David » Tue Jan 31, 2017 2:11 pm

Silvereye wrote:This is not interesting. This is not why I'm here. This makes me question how good the comic is, considering the author reckons it's less important than the political issue of the week.
Rest-assured, Crimson Dark will return to normal updates tomorrow.

But yes, I do believe that my webcomic is less important than what is happening in the USA right now. If you think differently, you might be underestimating the harm being done over there and its global impact.

Also, everyone: If you don't think that Crimson Dark is a politically-charged story, then you haven't been paying attention.
fightinfilipino wrote:i'm happy to see this post from David. keep it up!
Thanks :)
fightinfilipino wrote:and for folks who are fans of Crimson Dark and are either pro-Trump or apathetic to it all...have you missed the narrative of Crimson Dark entirely?
See, this one's been paying attention!

Edit to add: Yes, I'm deleting pro-trump propaganda posts in this forum. If this bothers you, read this https://xkcd.com/1357/.

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Silvereye
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Re: Official "Discuss the latest page" thread

Post by Silvereye » Tue Jan 31, 2017 2:50 pm

David wrote:Edit to add: Yes, I'm deleting pro-trump propaganda posts in this forum.
Wait, you're willing to raise an issue like this but you don't want anyone to disagree with the stance you went out of your way to publicly display? I'd rather everything stayed in space where it belongs, but come on. If you want to put something like that page up, you've got to expect people might discuss it. And some fraction of them, however small, won't agree with you about everything.

So let's delete their contributions to the topic you raised, because they dared to have a different opinion. Again, I don't care one way or the other about the dude. But if you think your opinions on this matter are the correct, best opinions then there's nothing to fear from opposing arguments. If you're actually in the right, they can only make you stronger. If you think the topic is worth talking about, then show it -- make your best argument for why they should agree with you, and allow them to do the same in return.

I'd rather nobody did any of it, but if you're going to then at least do it properly.

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David
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Re: Official "Discuss the latest page" thread

Post by David » Tue Jan 31, 2017 3:10 pm

Silvereye wrote:
David wrote:Edit to add: Yes, I'm deleting pro-trump propaganda posts in this forum.
Wait, you're willing to raise an issue like this but you don't want anyone to disagree with the stance you went out of your way to publicly display? I'd rather everything stayed in space where it belongs, but come on. If you want to put something like that page up, you've got to expect people might discuss it. And some fraction of them, however small, won't agree with you about everything.
I'm quite happy to have intelligent discussions with people who disagree with me. In fact I think one of the key tenants of wisdom is to surround yourself with smart people who disagree with you.

Trump supporters, however, are something special. I think it is no exaggeration to say that the Trump regime is a fascist oligarchy with chilling similarities to Nazi Germany, and its supporters are either blind to this fact, or okay with it. I will not politely sit down and listen to such people.

CygnusX1
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Re: Official "Discuss the latest page" thread

Post by CygnusX1 » Fri Feb 03, 2017 5:51 am

I think Trump getting supporters is primarily the fault of previous administration(s) ignoring the need of many people. As a result people wanted a change, and Trump found a way to exploit such need. Similar scenario happened in other countries, including mine, about 18 months ago. Not happy.
Just remember, USA is not the only country in the would; similar issues happen elsewhere too.

connectr
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Re: Official "Discuss the latest page" thread

Post by connectr » Fri Feb 03, 2017 7:05 am

Personally, as an American, I am delighted that David posted this. Someone must remind folk about what the USA was founded upon, even though many like to interpret and/or misinterpret to suit their own beliefs.
Thank you again David.

John Luckstedt
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Re: Official "Discuss the latest page" thread

Post by John Luckstedt » Fri Feb 03, 2017 8:50 pm

Hi David

Long time reader, first time poster. ;-) Just to let you know, I'm a New Zealander so don't have a dog in this race.

The reason I'm writing because I was very disappointed by your response to the posts you received, regarding the Trump issue. I'm talking about your response to the people who actually took the time and effort to respond to the post you made and express a different point of view which they attempted to back up by giving evidence for their position. They did it respectfully and with no rancor that I detected. In other words they weren't trolling. They were just disagreeing with you.

But instead of engaging in rational debate, testing your own ideas and attempting to show the falsity of theirs you:

- Dismissed their posts out of hand as 'Propaganda'.
- Basically called Trump a 'Fascist' and a 'Nazi' - very strong, emotionally charged terms that require evidence not be considered slander ... of which you provided none. So at this point an ad hominum attack.
- Basically called anyone who supported/s him a 'fascist' and a 'Nazi', or stupid (indirectly through guilt by association - either because they agree with what Trump's doing or because they can't see what's so obvious to you) and dismissed them as unworthy to sit down with and discuss your differing points of view with in a rational manner.

So it seems you've, at the very least, 'pre-judged' Trump supporters as being fascist Nazi's and/or stupid people. You've painted with a very broad brush (one would think there could be a wide range of reasons that motivated the almost 63,000,000 people who voted for Trump, some which might possibly not be fascist, Nazi, or stupid related) but offered nothing more an emotionally charged characterisation:
Trump supporters, however, are something special. I think it is no exaggeration to say that the Trump regime is a fascist oligarchy with chilling similarities to Nazi Germany, and its supporters are either blind to this fact, or okay with it. I will not politely sit down and listen to such people.
That would be engaging in prejudice David, and I've been told we're not supposed to do that. ;-)

You've also shown (by deleting instead of responding to the respectfully worded posts, or at the very least leaving the posts up for others to engage with) that you're 'intolerant towards those holding different opinions'. That just so happens to be the definition of a bigot (according to Google). Again I've heard this is something that we're supposed to avoid being. :-P

By the way David, I don't say the above to be offensive but to hold up a mirror as to how your actions have been perceived, at least by me.

Ultimately the trouble I have with the position you've taken is that it shuts down all rational debate. How is it possible to find out if your position can stand up to criticism or is even worthy of belief if you won't or can't defend it? And how are you ever going to be able to consider another point of view unless you're willing to engage with them and test them?

As one of the previous posters respectfully said before you deleted his post (again), it's your site and you can do what you like. But you may want to reconsider the truthfulness of your previous statement (quoted below) and how it applies to what you've done regarding this issue:
I'm quite happy to have intelligent discussions with people who disagree with me. In fact I think one of the key tenants of wisdom is to surround yourself with smart people who disagree with you.
It seems, at least on this issue, that you think they're smart only if they agree with you. :)

Kind regards
John Luckstedt

PS. I'm glad to see Crimson Dark has made a come-back. I've had you on my daily comic list to check 'just in case' ever since your previous run finished and it's finally paid off! :-D

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David
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Re: Official "Discuss the latest page" thread

Post by David » Fri Feb 03, 2017 10:53 pm

John Luckstedt wrote:Long time reader, first time poster. ;-) Just to let you know, I'm a New Zealander so don't have a dog in this race.
Welcome!
John Luckstedt wrote:But instead of engaging in rational debate, testing your own ideas and attempting to show the falsity of theirs you:

- Dismissed their posts out of hand as 'Propaganda'.
Their posts included lies and misinformation that served no purpose other than to legitimise the acts of what I see as an oppressive regime. I call this propaganda.
John Luckstedt wrote:- Basically called Trump a 'Fascist' and a 'Nazi' - very strong, emotionally charged terms that require evidence not be considered slander ... of which you provided none. So at this point an ad hominum attack.
"Fascism: An authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization." I stand by this description of Trump's government 100%.

I also stand by my comparison to the early days of Nazi Germany, based on my study of that era of German history and my general interest in political and European history.

These are not ad hominem attacks, because I am not targeting an individual, I am describing their position.
John Luckstedt wrote:- Basically called anyone who supported/s him a 'fascist' and a 'Nazi', or stupid (indirectly through guilt by association - either because they agree with what Trump's doing or because they can't see what's so obvious to you) and dismissed them as unworthy to sit down with and discuss your differing points of view with in a rational manner.
They might not be fascist or stupid, they might also be ignorant, or they might just enjoy taking contradictory views. Whatever the case, I simply cannot be bothered engaging with them here. I get enough of that crap on Facebook already.
John Luckstedt wrote:So it seems you've, at the very least, 'pre-judged' Trump supporters as being fascist Nazi's and/or stupid people. You've painted with a very broad brush (one would think there could be a wide range of reasons that motivated the almost 63,000,000 people who voted for Trump, some which might possibly not be fascist, Nazi, or stupid related) but offered nothing more an emotionally charged characterisation:
Note that I specifically said Trump supporters, not the people who voted for him. I have exactly zero respect for anyone who *still* supports Trump after everything he's done.
John Luckstedt wrote:You've also shown (by deleting instead of responding to the respectfully worded posts, or at the very least leaving the posts up for others to engage with) that you're 'intolerant towards those holding different opinions'. That just so happens to be the definition of a bigot (according to Google). Again I've heard this is something that we're supposed to avoid being. :-P
I welcome different opinions, and will happily discuss (for example):
  • Australia's Asylum Seeker policy
  • Pathfinder vs D&D 5e
  • Whether the next Doctor should be played by a woman
  • Is Rogue One the best Star Wars movie ever made?
I have strong views on all of these, but am quite happy to discuss them with people who think differently (and I have/do), because I believe it is possible to hold differing opinions on these matters while also being rational, intelligent and good-hearted people.

But when someone tries to talk to me about (for some extreme examples):
  • Whether the Holocaust really happened
  • Should women be allowed to vote?
  • Do owls exist?
...I will refuse to engage, because I have no interest in trying to talk to people who genuinely disagree with me on such issues. At this point I'm not being "intolerant towards those holding different opinions," I'm basically maintaining my sanity.
John Luckstedt wrote: As one of the previous posters respectfully said before you deleted his post (again), it's your site and you can do what you like. But you may want to reconsider the truthfulness of your previous statement (quoted below) and how it applies to what you've done regarding this issue:
I'm quite happy to have intelligent discussions with people who disagree with me. In fact I think one of the key tenants of wisdom is to surround yourself with smart people who disagree with you.
It seems, at least on this issue, that you think they're smart only if they agree with you. :)
Well I hope I've cleared that up. Thank you for testing me, I probably should have been clearer in the first place :)

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SFCGator
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Re: Official "Discuss the latest page" thread

Post by SFCGator » Sat Feb 04, 2017 6:04 am

Popped in again to see how the comic was doing and revisited the comments section. I found the posts between David and John Luckstadt very interesting. No one who knows me would ever think that I would support a fascist or any other kind or totalitarian regime, the thought is ludicrous. I've read your bio David, so as you don’t know anything about me here’s a bit of background. During my childhood I was pulled to Science Fiction through comics, juvenile SF books and of course movies. My first ‘hard’ or adult SF book was Clarke’s “The Martian Chronicles which at ten years of age I didn’t fully understand but I knew I loved it. Then I discovered Robert A. Heinlein and was forever lost to the genre. I can honestly say that, outside of my family, the philosophy of Heinlein and Star Trek had a most profound impact on my values as I grew from childhood through adolescence. My adult career was in government service with the Army Security Agency and Military Intelligence which required five Special Background Investigations or what is now known as a Single Scope Background Investigations (SSBI) to support Top Secret/ Sensitive Compartmented Information clearances. Also, I can’t remember how many CW programs I have been read onto. During my career our main opponents were totalitarian regimes throughout the world whether they be socialist, communist, fascist or just tyrannical dictatorships. I like to think I was a very small cog in the machine that brought down the Evil Empire of the USSR. Hubris, I know.

My own political philosophy could best be described as a Conservative/ Libertarian/ Constitutionalist who mostly votes Republican although I have voted for Democrats on occasion (Pres. Carter for one). Regarding this current election, given my knowledge of the Intelligence Community I viewed the reports of how Secretary Clinton mishandled classified information with growing genuine horror and outrage. I won’t rehash that whole matter, there’s too much available information covering it for anyone wanting to research it. I’ll only say that what she did resulted in the deaths and imprisonment of several of our own agents and operatives and put many more in jeopardy. That brings us to Pres. Trump who for me left very little choice given Sec. Clinton’s history. Were there others in the running that I would rather have seen win the nomination? Absolutely.

Regarding oligarchies, there are many who claim that to an extent that the USA is already controlled by such. The analyst part of me thinks that while there is an imbalance of wealth concentrated in the hands of a relative few, those one percenters are far too diverse and contentious to ever come together and unite. You have the Hollywood elite, the late Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, Bloomberg etc. on one side balanced by the Koch brothers(no fans of Trump), Steve Wynn, Trump etc. on the other with hundreds of others in between. Mexico is a prime example of an oligarchy controlled from the shadows by a few Aristocratic families. Our government and constitution is pretty much geared against allowing any such threat. Trump may be defined as an oligarch simply because of his wealth but, it appears to me that his history of dealing with and uplifting individuals in all classes from elevator operators to Senior VPs seem to belie this, which leads to the “fascist” issue.

Within the first week in office Trump signed an EO directing all agencies that where there is a conflict between an individual and the government and all things being equal, that the issue should be decided in favor of the individual. It was even worded that the individual should have a greater weight on the balance. I honestly can’t see where anyone with fascist tendencies would make such a ruling. In fact nothing like this has ever been done before in the history of American government (or any other) that I know of.

I dunno, I get where there are those on the left wing of the political spectrum who despise Trump and he has more than a few detractors on the right. That said I don’t see him as the absolute disaster that many purport him to be. Has he opened his mouth and spouted some inanity that made me wince? Yeah, and he’s still doing it although not as much, though TBF I don’t know of any politician that hasn’t done the same. God knows I’ve certainly said things I’ve regretted. So, David, if you’ve managed to read this far, know that whatever support I have for Trump, I have no intention of spreading misinformation or propaganda. I come to my opinions from my own knowledge, research and analytical training. Best of luck to you.

Hmm, based on the comments I think I'll revisit CD, go back to the beginning and reread to get a handle on where you're coming from politically. Yay, that'll burn through part of the weekend.

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